Tri-Tone Substitution

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foal30
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Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by foal30 » Thu May 10, 2007 2:33 pm

II-V-I is a guess a very common chord movement in Jazz

If we call the II Dorian or minor
V dominant or Mixolydian
I as major Ionian

every now and then kick the V out and throw in bII half diminished.
It's magic.
I'm real glad someone showed me this, it is my favorite new walk.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by Richard (of RBB) » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:48 pm

bII7 is a common tritone substitution. Say in C, the Db7 will give you Db, F, Ab, Cb - b5, 7, b9, 3(B) of the original G7.
You're suggested bII half diminished will give you b5, 6, 1, #9.
I think that both choices have their merits, but I've always gone with the bII7.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by Pstewart » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:33 pm

That's the cool thing about 7(b9) chords, you can happily sub them for any other one up a dim7 arp because their rootless chord tones spell out a dim7 chord!
Oh the fun you can have!
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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by Richard (of RBB) » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:53 pm

Pstewart wrote:That's the cool thing about 7(b9) chords, you can happily sub them for any other one up a dim7 arp because their rootless chord tones spell out a dim7 chord!
Oh the fun you can have!
`e vero.
Though the Abm7b5 will not quite fit into the Ab7(b) thing.
Ma mi ne frega una sega (Italian meaning roughly "What does it really matter" though a little stronger).

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by foal30 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:05 am

er, I look it as the sub =
1, 3, b5, 6 of the original 7 chord.

so using Db half dim chord tones 1 b3 b5 b7
= G7 1 (G) 3 (B) b5 (Db) 6 (E)

if I use this in any key by playing the b5 as the last note of the bar it adds chromatic motion to the incoming I chord.

Probably confused, it's a bit early.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by Richard (of RBB) » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:40 pm

Yes, sorry foal30, I'm getting old and got that IIb half diminished a bit wrong. You're quite right.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by foal30 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:47 pm

No worries.

looking at the tri -tone sub in Cmajor II-V-I

play chord tones/arpeggio on the IIm
then play 3 1 6 b5
which is B G E Db

then your next note is the 1 of the I chord approached chromatically descending.
big and juicy.

probably a bit late
can we write proper music notation on line? how do you do that, it would save a lot of pissing around I reckon.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by beagle » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:19 am

foal30 wrote:can we write proper music notation on line? how do you do that, it would save a lot of pissing around I reckon.
GEEK TIP :: Write it down then scan it into the computer using a scanner
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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by foal30 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:41 pm

right.
I'll need to find out about these Scanner things.Nev has mentioned it before.
thanks.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by beagle » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:59 pm

They are cheap as now..... $20 on trademe
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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by ryla » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:14 pm

the devils chord is always nice - watch for the nervous looks on your guitar players just before you resolve it.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by foal30 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:33 pm

Hi Nev :)

in a diatonic chord progression
III-VI-II-V-I
C major

take the VI chord, in this case A minor
give it the secondary dominant treatment = A7
alter that A7 to make it A7(b9)
raise the root by a third
gives us a mighty C# dim7

any 7(b9) chords become dim7
any 7 chords become m7(b5)
when we give it the TTS thang.

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Re: Tri-Tone Substitution

Post by hestan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:39 am

Another cool thing to check out, related to the tri-tone subs is progressing to the next stage, to interchanging 7th chords, - comes from symmetrical scale theory.

basically if you have a G7,

you can treat it as

Db7 (tritone) but also E7, and Bb7.... Once you play around even with those four triads, lots of cool stuff comes about. It was John Coltrane that originally pioneered that stuff...

Jaco had all this stuff down, - check out Opus Pocus on his debut. All the weirdest, hippest stuff comes about from using major and minor triads in inversions a minor third apart (like the above).

best,

J

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