4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

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monster
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4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by monster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:48 am

Is it typical for 4x10 cabs to have a big 'scoop' in the midrange?

I was playing through an Ampeg 4x10 & SVTpro-3 last night and I found I had to use the graphic EQ to boost 2kHz by quite a bit.

This morning I had a snoop around the BFM website and it showed a comparison for one of his designs vs a 4x10:
Image
...and sure enough there is a big dip at 2KHz

Why is this?
All all 4x10s like this?

Do 1x15 cabs do similar things? (I realise that different drivers would give different results too - just grossly generalising at this stage...) :D

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:03 pm

monster wrote: ...and sure enough there is a big dip at 2KHz

Why is this?
All all 4x10s like this?
Look at the SPL charts for various drivers, like this one:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510.pdf

And that's about as good as a ten gets.
Do 1x15 cabs do similar things?
Worse. And the charts you see are on-axis; off-axis isn't as good. Cabs should be crossed over no higher than 2kHz to either a midrange driver or a tweeter capable of going that low. Most commercial cabs don't because that would raise the price.

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monster
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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by monster » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:06 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:Look at the SPL charts for various drivers, like this one:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510.pdf

And that's about as good as a ten gets.
Do 1x15 cabs do similar things?
Worse. And the charts you see are on-axis; off-axis isn't as good. Cabs should be crossed over no higher than 2kHz to either a midrange driver or a tweeter capable of going that low. Most commercial cabs don't because that would raise the price.
I've had a bit more of a snoop around the Eminence site and I am intrigued to see drivers like the Kappalite 30xx series seem to have a 'flatter' response with less pronounced dips or peaks. Although these drivers have excellent sensitivity they are 'Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures' (not bass guitar).
The drivers recommended for bass (incl. the Kappalite 30xxLF series) have dips and peaks all over the shop!
What does the LF stand for?
Are the dips and peaks in the response curves desirable, or is it just that we are used to them?

e.g. evidently I don't like the sound of the dip at c.2kHz in a 4x10 cab and I assume that my EV-TL606 style 15" cab doesn't have this dip.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:22 am

The EV does go higher than most fifteens. That's accomplished via very tight manufacturing tolerances, which also raises the driver cost. But that high frequency performance is only on-axis. High frequency dispersion is inversely proportional to driver size, so the only bit of audience that gets to hear those highs are those directly in front of the cab.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by Harley » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:33 am

monster wrote:...drivers like the Kappalite 30xx series seem to have a 'flatter' response with less pronounced dips or peaks. Although these drivers have excellent sensitivity they are 'Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures' (not bass guitar).
The drivers recommended for bass (incl. the Kappalite 30xxLF series) have dips and peaks all over the shop!
What does the LF stand for?
LF stands for Low Frequency. These are not used in BFM Jack series bass cabs, but the HO series are and to very good effect. Jack Series cabs are vented.

The LFs are used in horn loaded subs which are sealed chamber cabs. They are also used in the BFM OMni series bass/keyboard/pa cabs, which are vented.
Retired authorised builder of Bill Fitzmaurice Design Speaker cabs for New Zealand - http://www.billfitzmaurice.info

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by timi » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:06 am

From what I can see you're getting the normal sharp rolloff around 2-3k from the LF driver, but this cab also has a horn which isn't taking over where the LF stops, so there's a bit of a gap between the two. Same thing would happen with a 2x12 or 1x15 if designed this way.

Seems strange that a "full range" cab would have a gap between the crossover points but this is only bad if you don't like the sound. A bass cab doesn't have to be flat and full range like a PA speaker unless you want it to be, but it sounds like you do so this is probably the wrong cab for you.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:12 am

timi wrote:From what I can see you're getting the normal sharp rolloff around 2-3k from the LF driver, but this cab also has a horn which isn't taking over where the LF stops, so there's a bit of a gap between the two. Same thing would happen with a 2x12 or 1x15 if designed this way.
Most commercial cabs are designed that way, and have been since the first tweeters were used in bass cabs some 35 years ago. Why? As I already said, it's cheaper that way. The two highest rated brands to emerge in the last few years, Barefaced Bass and Baer Amplification, use real midrange drivers.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by pins » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:53 pm

Question - monster,what type of cab(s) do you typically use or prefer ?
Harley was kind enough to visit me and gave me 2 BFM Jack 112 Lite cabs to try out,and Im blown away by this design.
My GB Uber 4x10 is great and I was pretty happy with it until Harley's visit :lol: .
Those 12'' driven Jack Lite cabs together would blow my cab away tbh and even a single cab would give the 4x10 a run for its money at near half the weight.
I have had 2 4x10 cabs with tweeters,cut the wires to the first one and the volume sits at 0 always on the one I use now,personally they offer nothing I want to hear.
As for the mid dip I bet I have just gotten used to the sound from a 4x10 ,and like everything in this game you dont know " if " your missing something until you try something else .

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by Tim1 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:19 am

I am a great fan of Bergantino cabs. The new neo CN212 looks to be a great cab - light, flat and tight response and out shortly. I have had no problems importing these from Bass Gear Direct in Oz in the past and hope to be getting either a CN212 or the new Bergantino sealed 115 cab shortly. Welcome to listen when it arrives. I am a great fan of sealed fifteeen cabs for my purposes - it will be a tough decision. That said, buying a locally manufactured cab should make sounder economic sense, plus the added patriotism factor.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by monster » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:41 pm

Chris wrote:Question - monster,what type of cab(s) do you typically use or prefer ?
I've not tried out many cabs, so my experience is limited, *but* I have a TL-606 cab with either an EV or Eminence 15" driver and I like this a lot. I used to have another one with a Blackwidow, but I didn't like the tone as much. The mids didn't seem very warm.
Other than this I have a very classic Jansen 2x12 which I wouldn't use for gigs.
Harley was kind enough to visit me and gave me 2 BFM Jack 112 Lite cabs to try out,and Im blown away by this design.
Fingers crossed - he is visiting me on Monday :)
My GB Uber 4x10 is great and I was pretty happy with it until Harley's visit :lol: .
Those 12'' driven Jack Lite cabs together would blow my cab away tbh and even a single cab would give the 4x10 a run for its money at near half the weight.
I have had 2 4x10 cabs with tweeters,cut the wires to the first one and the volume sits at 0 always on the one I use now,personally they offer nothing I want to hear.
As for the mid dip I bet I have just gotten used to the sound from a 4x10 ,and like everything in this game you dont know " if " your missing something until you try something else .
I've played through the SVT-Pro & 4x10 cab a number of times since November and the sound is by no means 'bad', but it was only at the last gig I found I got a tone I liked more when I used the graphic to boost @ 2kHz. Especially if I have a bit of drive from my modified Tubescreamer.

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Re: 4x10 cabs and dip in the mids

Post by pins » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:09 pm

keen to hear your views after Harley's visit :D
the more I have thought about cabs since trying the BFM design,I concluded that that there is room for improvement in this department for me.
I have replaced or bought new pretty well everything over the last 5 years or so,basses,amps,effects,cabs,but in doing so I have still used a 4x10 as a cab for the last 15 years at least (with 2 great amps) but seem stuck on that principle when it comes to cabs,has to be 4x10,almost brainwashed myself I suppose.
Pretty happy with what I have now especially with the P bass in the fold (again strung with chrome flats) but always feel my sound is still not quite 100% to "my" ears,but very very close......and thanks to Harley's BFM demo I have been enlightened so to speak that maybe a single 4x10 is not that great after all,I just dug what tone those 12'' driven cabs can provide.

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